you know I tried to be a country singer once and gee i got on RalphEmery show, had my own TV show won some contest and was embraced by the Nasville songwriters. BUT i was also told as a American Negro I will never be able to really make as a FEMALE one of color contry western singer and to know this. Wynton made this statement…................
Jazz is a portrait of America at its highest
> idealized level. Music should not have a racial
> title. This is American music, but in this
> country, music can only be white. You understand?”
But now he has crossed the barrior of jazz and country. he is in the country charts, the jazz charts for his two men and the blues with Willie Nelson.
Im sure if you ask him this question now it would be different and he has the write to change his mind because in life we learn and see thisngs in a different life and its ok.
Juan my nickname is in fact “Ms. Fox News” because I like to be fair and balanced.
As for Shostakovich, when I am talking about playing it, I mean that it is poorly conducted. The best conductors are ones who studied the composer and then are able to properly interpret and conduct the music. Leonard Slatkin is a Shostakovich expert and his NSO Symphony No. 5 is the best. My band director was Sousa fanatic and could conduct the hell out of his music.
As for where jazz came from you can believe what you want to. But I highly doubt that most black players would say that they didn’t borrow from gospel, r&B, and the blues to compose jazz standards. In fact my jazz improv teacher told of the story about how Monk wrote Round Midnight while touring with a Gospel group and how Coltrane used to sing with a doo wop group. These same jazz greats usually played other “black” music. Wynton having an upper class upbringing probably didn’t grow playing in a traditional black church. At the very least he most certainly spent most of his time playing classical. His style of jazz reflects that. He has a great vocabulary and even my jazz teacher said he is more of an encyclopedia than an innovator because he is not connected to the roots of jazz.
But again that doesn’t make what Wynton does any less valid (Although that Joe Cool CD was corny to me). He just simply picks up where Duke Ellington left off and follows in more of a George Gershwin tradition by making jazz have more concert hall appeal. To me this is cool because alot of the jazz artists that play with him would be dirt broke if it wasn’t for Wynton. However, I am not one of those musicians so I can say whatever I want.
But in all honesty in the end as long as Wynton is happy and feeding his family, opinions and analysis don’t really mean crap. Yet he did say at the J@LCO concert that I attended “if you don’t like the music try to make it better”, so I am offering my input to Mr. Marsalis on this forum. Again if the music is to expanded to a greater audience, jazz must find a way SOMETIMES to connect to the common black people and their struggle, because their experiences are the roots of jazz.
The University of Virgina
Dr. Wahoo said,
“Wynton having an upper class upbringing probably didn’t grow playing in a traditional black church. At the very least he most certainly spent most of his time playing classical. His style of jazz reflects that. He has a great vocabulary and even my jazz teacher said he is more of an encyclopedia than an innovator because he is not connected to the roots of jazz. “
Two things Charmaine.
Please provide evidence as to why you think Wynton had an “upper class upbringing.” You are completely wrong, BTW. As I said earlier, this point is not debatable. You clearly don’t understand what you are talking about here.
Secondly, please provide evidence as to why you believe Wynton is not connected to the the roots of jazz other than saying that “my jazz teacher said.”
In reality, I’m the stupid one here. I continue to try to have an intelligent conversation with you, when I know exactly what you’re doing and why you’re doing it. Someday I’ll get smarter…I hope.
Your not stupid loweredsixth. As Hosea 4:6 says “My people perish for a lack of knowledge”.
I know I can be a bit surely. I am going through a nasty divorce thanks to stupid jazz artists so I tend to take out my anger on unsuspecting people, lol.
That being said I am going to tone down my inflammatory speech, because my therapist said it is simply unhealthy and turns me into a victim. I have been watching this forum for a year now and it was pretty much dead. I never expected to cause such a ruckus. I just like to vent my frustration with very little regard for how it comes out, because in the real world no one really pays attention to me anyway. My ex-husband is a very famous doctor, so for the past 10 years I just sat in his shadow. I was in a home where wives should be seen not heard, lol. Well all that is slowly changing as you can see ;)
Anywhoo, about Wynton. As the saying goes you can’t fully understand a person until you walk a mile in their shows. Well I have in many regards walked in Wynton’s shoes as a classically trained black trumpet player.
I could probably drop some knowledge on him that he would agree with and expand his consciousness of who he is. Not because I am smarter or anything but because I have studied him closely for so many years. Or to get down to a deep spiritual level if you can dig it (again I am Messianic Jew) Psalm 119:99 says “I am smarter than all my teachers because I meditate on [God’s word]”.
I see Wynton in 3D, not in conventional one dimension that most people look at him. I see him from a musical, sociological and historical perspective. When I look at him I see the past, present and future all at the same time.
But to make it simple for everyone else, you would have to read the essay called the Matrix of Domination by Patricia Hill Collins http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matrix_of_Domination. When i read this at Spelman College it blew my mind.
Like I said before we in America are so used to looking at things in black and white. Even I was guilty of this when I was applying to college. I grew up in a predominately white area and thought I would find a home at black college. Uhmmm no.
In truth, what people fail to see that can only be viewed primarily on a black campus today, because of the effects of integration, is that black people are more discriminatory than even white people. That is why when I gave a lecture at my dad’s predominantly black church I told them “that no race has a monopoly on morality.” Since the Civil Rights Movement and racial discrimination is still so fresh in the American consciousness, most black Americans in general idealize black people to the point of deification. For example, they think that if a black person is in charge things would be better. Of course this is total lunacy for anyone who studies African Culture or history. Does Idi Amin or the Rwanda Genoicide ring a bell ? But again I do not fault my people they just don’t know any better.
But again how does this relate to Wynton and all jazz greats in general ? In a word: class. The color of person skin tends to distract people from issues surrounding class. The book “Don’t Believe the Hype: Fighting Cultural Misinformation About African Americans” points out for example that people tend to think that black people do generally bad on the SATs in comparison to white people. However, in truth middle class and upper middle class black students do just as well as their white counterparts. Understanding issues surrounding class and race was a severe paradigm shift for me and raised my level of consciousness for how I viewed African Americans. This was no more true as I began reading the biographies of famous Black people in history.
Let’s look at Miles. I have read his biography but if you just simply read it on Wikipedia it says this “Miles Davis was born to a relatively affluent family in Alton, Illinois. ” Just from experience and as a highly trained historian who knows how to read and interpret primary documents, highly trained black musicians were by no means poor people. Do you know how much instruments cost ? I know for myself I couldn’t afford the Bach Stradivirius Trumpets that all my white friends were playing on nor the $100/hr lessons. Some of us take for granted how much money time and effort it takes to become a classically trained musician. It is almost like golf.
If you read between the lines of Wynton’s biography specifically about him being asked to play for the New Orleans Philharmonic and getting into Tanglewood, it is quite apparent that he was middle class. Poor people don’t have time for their sons to practice their horns all the time, those sons need to go out and make money. Again I know, because when my family hit a financial bind my senior year in high school I couldn’t practice as much as I want to, and had to get a job.
I don’t always like what Wynton says and does but I understand it and respect him, because he is a pioneer. As they say it is good to learn from your mistakes, but better to learn from others. I have the benefit of studying Wynton, but Wynton had no black virtuous to study. Everything for him was trial and error. Again I know from experience a black person playing classical is considered a traitor to their people. I don’t know how many times I was called white because I love Shostakovich and still today somewhat prefer him as a person and composer to Miles Davis.
In all honesty how Quincy Jones called out Wynton is very similar to how Jesse Jackson said he wanted to cut off Obama’s balls. Old Timers can’t understand the effects and benefits of integration. They don’t understand the monsters their struggle created.
Finally, at the very least without this long drawn out intellectual discussion you cannot possibly think that Jay-Z and Wynton really have anything in common except the color of their skin.
As for the roots of jazz, uhmm again most jazz greats at a young age played in seedy bars and toured with other music groups of other typically black genres. In fact almost EVERY black jazz musician I know has played or is playing with a famous R&B group or played in a a predominantly black church. This again is not Wynton’s path at all. He mostly played in Classical groups New Orleans Symphony Brass Quintet, New Orleans Community Concert Band, under the direction of Peter Dombourian, New Orleans Youth Orchestra, New Orleans Symphony.
I mean even as I am trying to provide hard facts from a historical and sociological point of view, it seems I am not that original in my thinking when it comes from a pure musical perspective. I mean just now I am reading for the first time criticism from Marsalis’ wikipedia page.
Read this :
Critic Scott Yanow praises Marsalis’s talent, but has questioned his “selective knowledge of jazz history considering post-1965 avant-garde playing to be outside of jazz and 1970s fusion to be barren.” Trumpeter Lester Bowie opined of Marsalis’s traditionalism, “If you retread what’s gone before, even if it sounds like jazz, it could be anathema to the spirit of jazz.” In his 1997 book Blue: The Murder of Jazz Eric Nisenson argues that Marsalis’s focus on a narrow portion of jazz’s past is stifling the music’s growth and preventing any further innovation.
Pierre Sprey, president of jazz record company Mapleshade Records, declares that “When Marsalis was nineteen, he was a fine jazz trumpeter ... But he was getting his tail beat off every night in Art Blakey’s band. I don’t think he could keep up. And finally he retreated to safe waters. He’s a good classical trumpeter and thus he sees jazz as being a classical Music. He has no clue what’s going on now.”
From nearly the beginning of Marsalis’ career, he occasionally butted heads with trumpeter Miles Davis, one of the leading names in jazz since the ‘40s. In his autobiography Davis expressed disapproval of the heavy promotion afforded Marsalis by Columbia Records’ George Butler, citing it as a factor in his leaving the record label after four decades. Additionally, Davis described Marsalis as good trumpeter and “a nice young man, only confused” due to what Davis saw as his being over-praised by traditionalist jazz critics:
Despite all his critics, I am again Ms. Fox News “Fair and Balanced”. Wynton will always be my hero because God blessed him with amazing unique talent and he is the FIRST black virtuous in history. Long live Wynton Marsalis. Miles is my favorite JAZZ trumpeter, but Miles couldn’t play the hell out of the Hummel or Haydn concerto,lol.
The University of Virgina
“As for the roots of jazz, uhmm again most jazz greats at a young age played in seedy bars and toured with other music groups of other typically black genres. In fact almost EVERY black jazz musician I know has played or is playing with a famous R&B group or played in a a predominantly black church. This again is not Wynton’s path at all. He mostly played in Classical groups New Orleans Symphony Brass Quintet, New Orleans Community Concert Band, under the direction of Peter Dombourian, New Orleans Youth Orchestra, New Orleans Symphony. “.....uh, Dr. Wahoooooo….please address any of of the points in any of my previous posts-you’re a better dodger than Bush’s Press Secretary!!! ...the above paragraph is just an example of your own misunderstanding and “twisting” of history to fit your own sociological view….you don’t actually know what type of ensembles Wynton played with while growing up, geez you really are a social bigot, you equate practicing and classical music with middle and upper class…and you are stereotyping ALL black jazz musicians…hell, very FEW of my black jazz musician colleagues (and we can compare lists later…) have EVER “played or is playing with a famous R&B group”...it’s a matter of artistic integrity and has nothing to do with the psuedo-social-psycho babble you spew…for the record, Wynton’s tenure with a NO funk band “The Creators” is carefully documented…not to mention his time in various church marching bands ...AND, this is probably most troubling to me, you quote two, non-playing, drive-by media, WHITE critics of Wynton!!! Hell, how would they know anything about jazz music….they have no credibility!!
“I could probably drop some knowledge on him that he would agree with and expand his consciousness of who he is. Not because I am smarter or anything but because I have studied him closely for so many years. Or to get down to a deep spiritual level if you can dig it (again I am Messianic Jew) Psalm 119:99 says “I am smarter than all my teachers because I meditate on [God’s word]”.
Wow, you really do have the hubris of Fox news, you should take your own advice ” Read 1 Corinthians 13 or one of my favorite scriptures that always humbles me is that knowledge puffs up loves edifies. ” For you to presuppose that you can give Wynton some insight into who he is, because you “have studied him closely for many years” is absolutely ridiculous. Please, you have no idea who he is from “studying” him…from how far? Even up close, he is a private, private person…
And ” in many regards walked in Wynton’s shoes as a classically trained black trumpet player. ” No you haven’t. I am a conservatory trained classical trumpet player, and I have NO IDEA what is like to appear solo with the NY Phil…at like age 21!! And to tour with the greatest classical musicians in the world, and to record with them…and neither do you, unless you hhave a resume of appearances and recording you would like to present here that those of us in the community are unaware of…
Dr WAHOO, for one who appears (at times) to be so spiritually enlightened, your bloated ego and self-centered brand of intellectualism is really disturbing…perhaps you should take your therapists advice….
Uhmm have you provided any evidence besides your own opinion Juan ?
The University of Virgina
DrWahoo, As much as you’ve “studied” the life of Wynton Marsalis, believe me I have studied more. Even more, Juanmustard actually knows the man personally. Please don’t assume that because you’ve read the Wikedpedia entry on Wynton and maybe his biography you can enlighten us all about his life.
I’m sorry to hear about the divorce you’re going through, but as I said in an earlier post, people that try to create as much drama and controversy as you do are obviously trying to distract themselves from a problem in their life. Face the problem and you’ll find less need to surround yourself with drama.
As far as you coming on these boards to challenge our thinking and enlighten us, I will speak for myself when I say, “Thanks, but no thanks.”
Hahaha I actually laughed out loud when I read that shit Wahoo…wow, alright, I’ll get copies of his parents tax returns for 1960-1979 and also pics of the house and perhaps some first person interviews with folks he grew up with, now this may take awhile as some are in prison…but give me a hot second and I’ll PROVE that he grew up a poor urban black child…haha I’m still laughing…
Listen, you were right in your other thread…this is boring, I am kicking your ass with your own repetitive, “ambiguous”, self-important lexicon…I feel like a heavyweight boxer slugging it out with a feather weight…you’re down and you’re out…but still on your feet..I have addressed everything you have brought up in regards to Wynton and his music…you however…are throwing nothing but air…please address some specifics….or lay down and take the count…
So the first chapter of not Corinthians, but Moving to a Higher Ground, is published on this site. That’s a detailed desciption of Wynton’s training with Danny Barker of Second Line fame. Ok, down in New Orleans, the second line parades happen for so many reasons. It’s easy to have one, you just map out a route, present it to city hall, and pay your fee for a permit. Of course, you will need a marching band to be walking along that route. Social Aid and Pleasure clubs have them, churches have them, neighborhoods have them, community centers have them, elementary schools have them, marching bands are ready to pick up their horns and drums at the drop of a hat, or a baton. That’s the New Orleans urban tradition. That’s the tradition that Wynton grew up in that connects him to the urban traditions of New Orleans, outside of his family training, cultural training, and classical training. The facts were published in September. Go read up Wahoo. The download link is listed under Featured Posts.
I believe dear Juan that you mentioned a book privately called Cooking with Hot Grease where Wynton said that he lived two doors down from Donna Brazille. If that is what you say, reading excerpts from her books does not suggest that Wynton lived an urban life similar to New York urban life during the 70s and 80s when crack became king. Maybe you should watch New Jack City with Wynton sometime on your big HD and have a glass of wine or something. Whatever rich boys do. This is the urban life that hip hop came from, not 1960s hickville, USA. Southern cities are nothing but big country towns not concrete jungles like New York and Chicago.
Maybe I got some of the details wrong, but there is no way in heck can you tell me that Wynton has anything in common with young black boys that grew up in crack infested areas during the 1970s and 80s. To me everything you tell me about his struggle was as young black man fighting racism in the south, not another black man over a vial of crack trying buy a Kango Hat and some Addidas. I am not saying that Wynton is not black or not cool, I am just saying he can’t relate to these men simply because they have the same skin color. He grew up in a VERY different time.
Also to me also there is a difference between being broke and being poor. Wynton didn’t grow up poor, he grew up broke. Poor people don’t have a loving encouraging family and do not have the means to change their reality. Broke people are those who choose to sacrifice financially in the pursuit of dream, (i.e. Donald Trump) In a book by Trump he talks about after his big bankruptcy he looked at a bum with $1 and said to himself “this man is worth more than me”. Was Donald poor no, he was broke.
Okay Juan sweetheart, I suffered a few body blows but baby I am even more vicious on my back ;) How about I give you a standing eight count and then nurse your wounds later, lol. True I am a fighter, but rest assured that I am lady too.
The University of Virgina
I am always solution oriented, but maybe Wynton could stop being a snob and maybe go to the 40-40 club and talk to Jay-Z. Maybe they can learn something from each other.
At the AMA’s I saw a cool performance with Kathleen Battle, Alicia Keys, and Queen Latifah. These young women knew they couldn’t sing with this woman, they just looked at her with awe and amazement. Kathleen and Wynton are from a different time and generation. People born in the 60s are in a weird no-mans land between Baby Boomers and Generation X-ers or something. Little more Motown and absolutely no hip hop. At least Kathleen didn’t sit back and say I refuse to perform or commune with these pop stars. Instead I think she understands she was afforded musical training style that few black youth can day can even dream of. I talked to my trumpet teacher on Sunday who is white and went to Eastman. I asked her how did she get in. She talked about how much MONEY her parents invested in her. She said the same thing you I have said, you can’t get top musical training today unless your are rich or your parents are willing to sacrifice.
Almost EVERY black jazz musician I know has played in church at some point and some are playing with R&B groups and doing their arrangements. Alot of their parents certainly didn’t pay $50/hr for some music lessons. They didn’t get into jazz in some concert hall or just some school band. Their parents and grandparents probably had a jazz record hidden somewhere behind the Blind Boys of Alabama or something. Jazz was very taboo for alot of black people back in the day. I remember my grandma screaming when I was playing some R&B on the radio, “No Jazz on Sunday, No Jazz on Sunday”
According to my Jazz improv teacher who is an encyclopedia on jazz history, this is what Monk, and Coltrane used to do. In fact he said Monk wrote Round Midnight while touring with a Gospel Group and Coltrane used to sing in a Do Wop Group. Maybe Wynton should give Herb Smith of Northern Virginia Community College a call. Herb has played with them all and seen them all. There are alot of these old black cats running around America born in the 40s and 50s, who know the true history of jazz, because they lived it and not just read it in some book. Wynton really grew up musically when jazz was past its Golden Age. An Age where Monk Coltrane and Miles used to ride the chitlin circuit and weren’t allowed in many white establishments. In fact if you listen to a solo by Coltrane on the Kind of Blue album he quotes an R&B song.
Yall can say all day that you know Wynton but you don’t know the true history of jazz, because frankly Wynton wasn’t alive to live even really experience it. Jazz has become watered down crap put through the ringer of Madison Avenue, just like everything else black and wonderful. Music today is about image not necessarily quality music. The most talented musician and artists are not always in freaking New York or LA. Those are the courageous few who dared took risks to pursue a dream. Wynton is one of the last bastions of the black jazz experience. I believe he can be a conduit between the golden age of monk and coltrane to today’s hip hop culture. Just have a meeting with Jay-z or P Diddy. Learn about these young men and their struggles to become great. They may inspire him in ways that he could never imagine. Stay open. I have learned you can learn as much from a junkie on the street as you can from a CEO. When you do this you learn how to inspire the junkie to turn his life around to become the CEO. Likewise, Wynton stays open to getting to know some hip hop moguls they may start a revolution of some sort. Save the music VH1
The University of Virgina
“Also to me also there is a difference between being broke and being poor. Wynton didn’t grow up poor, he grew up broke. Poor people don’t have a loving encouraging family and do not have the means to change their reality. Broke people are those who choose to sacrifice financially in the pursuit of dream, (i.e. Donald Trump) In a book by Trump he talks about after his big bankruptcy he looked at a bum with $1 and said to himself “this man is worth more than me”. Was Donald poor no, he was broke. “
Wow again. You just completely changed the discussion…your statement was that he was Middle or upper middle class because he played classical music and had a Daddy….my refuting of that was that he grew up poor.(which I tried to do privately) AND I’ve been to Kenner, it is not some country town with smiling happy faces…as I said before poor is poor. Bottom line. And the whole hip hop angle…not sure what that has to do with our discussion…I never claimed that he could relate to crack heads and kangols…
“old black cats”?? You know that his daddy is one right? That he grew up in New Orleans around a whole pile of these guys? AND that every single living black jazz legend played with him at Lincoln Center? That was one of his missions…to give some of these ““old black cats” a chance to perform in a place where before, they were refused the opportunity…let’s see…who would be old enough to meet your high standards…how about Adolphus Anthony Cheatham? Who played with Louis Armstrong and mentored Wynton? How about Harry Edison? One of the original members of the Basie band from the 1930’s…who referred to Wynton as “Baby Boy” and took him to all the late night south central hangs….Jesus Wahoo…what is enough for you? You want a longer list…I’ll be happy to compile it…hell, I personally saw the conversation between Wynton, Clark Terry, Roy Eldridge and Dizzy! How about that for “old black cats”!?
“Just have a meeting with Jay-z or P Diddy. Learn about these young men and their struggles to become great. They may inspire him in ways that he could never imagine. “
That’s the craziest shit I have ever read on here…Wynton is a musician, interested in musical things…those guys are charlatans, and couldn’t carry Wynton’s musical jock…what could he possibly be inspired by?
While I sit in front of my big screen (it is in HD too..Beyonce looks great!) I drink only single malt scotch or Hennessy…no wine for me baby…
While you rail against race, class, jazz and sexism…I have yet to hear (see) you address the depiction of women in rap/hip hop music and videos? Don’t you think that your precious Jay-Z and Piddy D have taken women back to the stone age with some of their mysoginistic pronunciations?
Seriously especially you lowered sixth who says you don’t want to be enlightened. Then fine live in darkness. Too many people today let anyone dictate what the truth is and fail to really THINK about what is being said. I recently read this in the book “The Cash Flow Quandrant”. As one person said “Thinking is torture for most people”. So many of you are like “Oh Wynton is the greatest jazz person today, so because I know him and played with him I know everything there is about jazz.”
That is some bull crap. I am not trying to be rude but again if you want to know the true history of jazz talk to some really old black jazz cats. Journeyman that grew up with jazz. Not a guy who went to Juliard and then played with Art Blakely in the 80s. African history is oral not written. Just because something is written on page doesn’t necessarily make it “legit”. The is a reason why there is something called “The Fake Book” and “Real book”. Jazz was originally written down it was passed down orally by alot of black musicians who really didn’t know that much about the European music notation system.
Again you want to know the true history of jazz stop always filling your head with written material on it and HEAR the history. Hear are a few people that taught me about jazz. No they are not some big stars in a swanky New York music hall. They are simply the griots and journeymen who never could stand the glitz and glam of New York. Personally I think God perserved these gentleman from that crazy jazz life so that they can live to tell the story. Herb Smith of Northern Virginia Community College and Joseph Jennings at Spelman College. Call them, talk to them. THINK about what these men are saying. Not about who they are or where they come from.
The University of Virgina
Blah blah blah blah blah. Thanks for breathing some life into these forums. Ha ha.
Anyway, I just wanted to breath some damn fine lyrics into these forums. How about this little diddy:
“Juan, Juan, I told ya to stop.”
At least that’s what it sounds like they’re saying. Juan, what are they saying again?
Charmaine, I’m glad you’ve become an expert on jazz history. You’ve really come a long way in such a short time! Preach on sista! Preach on!