Wynton Marsalis Discussion Forum

   

Quincy Jones Calls Wynton out…

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clmj123 Please go back and read all of my comments, I hope that my statements will clarify why jazz is not hip hop!!!!

     
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seasoned Wrote:

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> Loweredsixth I take it you ARE from New Orleans.

 

No, I’m not from New Orleans. What does that have anything to do with what I said?

     
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The only things I have read have been your emotional accounts as to why you believe the two genres are not related. That is like saying rock or r&b is not related. Though the two aren’t as complex regarding their use of harmony, they both stem from improvisational music. That is the essence of “rap” as it were. The only difference between verbal improvisation and harmonic improvisation is the use of tones to express ideas as opposed to words. The colors of the notes then carry the color of the music and not the tone and inflection of the voice. Rap is spoken singing. If you take more than a cursory look at hip-hop culture, you will see evidence of jam sessions in the same manner as you would in a jazz club. The difference is the nomenclature. A hip-hop jam session is known as a cipher and the idea is equal. In fact, I am sure that many know that there was improvisation in classical music. I am an avid fan of both jazz and hip-hop cultures respectively. That means I have listened to both heavily and I have asked questions of elders in both genres. (for the “full cirlce” effect) Quincy Jones probably didn’t have any emotion behind his charge of Mr. Marsalis. Shucks, He has rapped on one of his albums, so he obviously sees the parallel. He may have been speaking to the point that most young children don’t know about Jazz, and that greatly effects the quality of hip-hop. The evidence is out there. One thing to look out for, however, is a more comprehensive fusion of both jazz and hip-hop.  A young cat with an old soul, dig? There’s a track from KRS-One on which the producer sampled “Yesterdays” from “Clifford Brown with Strings”. That’s the beginning.

     
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Just wanted to let you guys know.  A bunch of “hip -hop artist Will- i-a m, among others have recorded tunes of Nat King cole singing on them with hip-hop Natile was on Tavis Smiley last night and announced it. it will come out in January. This is almost a first for many of these kind of artist.

Now as far as hip hop and jazz.  wel,,,,,,hm,,,,,, I noticed if I take a rap from some of the more melodic hip hop artist i cant scat muscially what they are rapping without saying the words. It used be only two chords vamping now they are using 3 and more.

     
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There’s a track from KRS-One on which the producer sampled “Yesterdays” from “Clifford Brown with Strings”. That’s the beginning.

 

 

No,  Not the beginning it’s the end!!!!!

     
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Ghana is having the same problem.  Traditional drum and dance are falling by the wayside for the style called “hiplife”.  They use a beatbox or keyboard or some electronic sample to be the bell and then go from there.  Drum and dance is now built into the school system, but the youth are still turning to the modern lures of westernized culture. 

bell pattern samples.  OMG, what are we coming to?

     
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i think a way to seperate hiphop from jazz is….

when does jazz chant that you should “shake your rump"or “babump, babump”?

hahaha

     
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I have to say, when I analyze a cultural situation, I try to go to the root of the era, which in this case centers around advents in technology.

It’s like the 80’s was the decade of the “Individual”, they call us “the Me generation”.  I was in my ‘tweens when MTV was born.  So what was the evolution of music if the Zeitgeist was “Me”?  The DJ became the icon: the individual mastering technology.  It was the sign of the times.  We had VCRs, walkmans, diffusers on our blowdryers, and Vidal Sassoon.  Transister radios fell out of popularity in favor of the boombox (again, a technological reaction, it’s the antithesis of the walkman).  Foremost in my mind, though, we all had Huey Lewis and the News (and other groups that sounded like them). 

Now, what brings Huey to mind is this wedding that I went to out in Norco/St. John Parish last night.  After I got over the sight of all those refineries and that Earth looks like a Sci-Fi movie, I went to the reception.  That band there, they made me think of Huey, his saxophone, and his Top 40 hits.  The horns didn’t drop out of the 80’s, they were America’s contenders against the 80’s British Invasion, which was led by the likes of Duran Duran, Adam Ant, and Kajagoogoo.  Actually, Duran Duran had a saxophone player as well, remember Rio and the video with the yacht?  So jazz instrumentation was a variable in the popular music of the 80’s.  It also seems that some style of applied improvisation can set the stage for the DJ, since the DJ became active with the turntable and the “Re-mix”.

     
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Wow I have been missing out on a great discussion. I am with Neil, hip hop is NOT jazz. Yes they are connected, but Jazz takes FAR more musical training than throwing records on a turntable and sampling other people’s stuff. Jazz is A HIGH art former, because of the time and energy it takes to master it. You most certainly will not find an elite jazz artist doing anything other than playing mostly jazz or its European cousin Classical music. (Classical music is a cousin, not a brotha of jazz, lol). It is virtually impossible to play an instrument at a high level and be in movies, tv shows, or anything else at the same time. To my understanding the J@LCO practices almost 8 hours a day. That is just learning the music, then I am sure many of them sit at home analyzing chord changes and stuff. Now there are some who can get by with out practicing all the time, but they are not consistently great improvers. To be the elite of the elite of jazz you need to know how to improv at consistently high level almost every night.

 

So please brother clmj123 don’t EVER disrespect jazz musicians by suggesting that they are on the same level musically as a hip hop artist. Or as one jazz great once told me, “just because people like McDonald’s doesn’t mean its high quality food.” At the time I was a little slightly ignorant to not quite get what he was saying, but he is right.  Just because something feels or taste good doesn’t mean it is the same quality.  Aesthetically jazz is of a higher quality form of music than hip hop bar none.

 

Now is it a higher form of cultural expression in general ? Not really, depending on your values. To me the highest form of cultural expression center around the worship of Ad-nai. But I am a Messainic Jew so my values are different from other peoples.  I like playing and listening to all forms of music, but for my soul it is all just McDonald’s music. Yet I would never disrespect someone’s gift, I just can’t appreciate how they use it all the time. I believe anyone blessed with great talent or intellect has been chosen by God not to Lord over people but to serve. If you want to be great in my God’s kingdom learn to be a servant of all. How you choose to serve humanity is based on who you serve spiritually. Unfortunately, some people serve money and embrace the Babylon System, reject the teaching of his majesty to foster the spread of the devil philosophy.

 

So one day at the judgment seat every musician, will be asked ” In your life who did you serve ?” I sincerely hope the ones I know answer correctly, because I know my name is written the Lamb’s Book of Life and Yeshua Hamashia is my Lord. Not because I was born in America, but because He saved my soul. But then again that is just me and I am VERY PECULIAR.

     

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Charmaine Nokuri

Historian/Artist

The University of Virgina

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Listen to Wynton’s “All Rise”.

     
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Apples & Oranges.  To each his or her own.  I will say this, if you see Wynton live, there is no doubt he plays with feeling and melodic wit.  Interpretation & taste are up to the listener, but don’t make up your mind until you see an artist live.  The argument of hip- hop being connected to jazz, I really don’t know. Hip-hop is too young to tell.  We will see.

     
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I didn’t know that anyone would read that. That’s funny to me. So I have to respond. First of all, hip hop music is not just the beats. It’s only one part. Secondly, Jazz is actually better called a child of classical music and not a cousin. Also, you only call it disrespectful because of your perception. You cannot argue opinion, but you must be fair- and frankly, that is not what you are being. Understand that for everything that man can think up to use for righteous purposes, there that same thing is used for less than righteous purposes. While not condoning either behaviors I ask what’s worse? Someone who sings about the money they’re making or one that sings about God only for the money? Who are we to see? If you have that power and say that positive hip hop is trash (what I call McDonald’s- no offense) and it’s “creators” are wasting talents then forgive me for challenging you. But if you’re just a human like I am, then go ahead and do your research. Then, if you’re a musician, make a beat and sell it. Then tell me if it’s easy. I’m humble so if you do well, I’d really like to know and would congratulate you.

     
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Nuh uhhh, it’s the beginning.

     
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That’s hilarious! You’re right, they’re just telling women to “meet them with their black draws on.”

     
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Sorry,  don’t want to be rude…but it is very difficult to argue facts with people that do not play themselves!!!!

 

Neil L. King

http://www.neil-king.com