Wynton Marsalis Discussion Forum

   

The Rise and Fall of Jazz Music

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you said my message is a little off thread Hmmmmm I thought the topic was about the rise and fall of jazz. these artist I mentioned are black one of them is doing wynton’s tune. or do you want to talk about why there are more white people attending jazz venues in new york than blacks or do you want to talk about more than half blacck musicians date white or oriental men/woman to try and fit in with acceptance of the now white majority attended crowd at the jazz venues and bill board charts and grammy’s.  You talk about african american’s and jazz but when you want to talk about the rise of jazz artist you don’t want to address it. who are you to tell me to go find another thread or create one on my own like you own this sight.

     
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Defintely this is a contribution to the fall of jazz what you had told me bone. Upon looking at pass commnets on this sight it seemed appropriate if you are going to discuss race you would not ignore a contribution of wynton’s marsalis tune. its not about new artist its about the rise of JAZZ and the fall of jazz. just what is your preference with race when it comes to jazz if you close your ears can you tell if someone is balck or white or green these days. sometimes yes but many times no?

     
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what about you miss karen you seem to always have some kind of an opinion I am suprised you have not said a peep.

     
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peep.  Yes, indeed, Ms. Marchelle is a talent worth taking note of.  Her vocal techniques carry a great sound and range of emotion. 

As for my opinions, expression is an art form in itself and all that comes with ebb and flow.  I am still trying to get warm after my recent visit to the fair but chilly state of New York.

     
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O.K., don’t start a new thread.  I want you to know that I wasn’t trying to be combative, I honestly was trying to help you get more reponses regarding up and coming jazz musicians. If I came across as rude, please know that it was not intended.

I personally don’t enjoy the two artists that you mentioned, so I figured “if I didn’t have anything nice to say….”

     
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Once again I am back because I need a release from my horrible reality. I just spent few hours in the Welfare office so I am a bit surly today.  I really have difficult wrapping my head around the fact that intelligence does not protect you from tragedy. That is why as a woman with an Artist Philosopher’s temperament, intellect must give way to raw emotion   and my creative soul must be released from it’s cage and crawl into the warm and soothing embrace of music ;)

That being said, debating jazz artists is seriously like shooting fish in the barrel for me.  Although I give some serious kudos to Karen. I am about to lose my lunch saying this, but if it wasn’t for Karen’s contributions I was honestly beginning to think that Sean Jones was the most intelligent black jazz musician I have ever talked to. (Oops there goes my lunch).  Though it was a very brief encounter, the young man seems to have a good head on his shoulders. However, my trumpet ego and musical pedigree refuses to acknowledge him as the best young jazz trumpeter. Most young bucks like Lee Hogan these days, are out touring with pop and R&B stars, so I think all the real black talent is being drained from jazz.

 

 

As for what Wyton would think about our conversation. Uhmm who cares.  Should reason bow down to the tyranny of one carnal mind ? I don’t know Mr. Marsalis but I am pretty sure he doesn’t need anyone to speak for him. If he has something to say about this conversation I am sure he is quite capable to contribute significantly more intelligently than most people….. except me, lol. (Damn my trumpet ego, ROFL)

     

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Charmaine Nokuri

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There’s so much to think about here, trumpet egos aside. There’s the American experience and history of sacrifice. The Civil Rights movement and its impact on subsequent generations… (What have we done to make anything any better? And how can our country end up in this mess when we have the most technologically advanced and most highly educated society of all time??).

Raising children. What are they being taught, anyway? Revisionist history? The role of mothers; is it not common sense that the more time and effort you put into your child, the better chances for turning out well?  We’re looking at colleges now. And it’s an eye opener. 

 

And then there’s The Blues, which goes through this entire spinning thread.

 

Dr.Wahoo, when it all gets like this my mere logic says to keep practicing. The music will translate somehow. Whether it’s jazz, blues or Granados. We all have creativity; Wynton wrote in his opinion everyone has creativity to some degree (makes one wonder, anyway). May as well use it and find ways to educate our children as well as adults, standing up for what is right. Exploring what is good and establishing common ground. Goes for everybody! Regardless of what nonsensical polls tell us or how the media barks. How is it different in Europe, etc? I agree with you about Russian music!

Best, Glo.

     
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I spent another few hours today in Welfare office and realized that the only purgatory that in fact exist is earth itself. I really feel like I am in my own private cell guarded by the god of celibacy, imprisoned by my love for jazz ;) When I am totally stressed out my whole being desires jazz music. To hear it, smell it, taste it, play it, touch it, and feel it. True jazz is passion personified. There is nothing like melodic orgasms and harmonic body spasms, then to bask in the afterglow of perfect enharmonics. Instead my life has become a 12 bar blues that keeps hitting the 251 turn around and refuses to resolve. Clearly I am musically frustrated, lol.

I think I striated my artist side long enough to have a clear logical thought :) Thanks Gloria for your contributions to this discussion. I may be too emotional right now to give a lucid response but I will do my best.

 

1) Europe. My minor was is in Foreign Affairs (did I mention how much I hate UVA for killing my musical dreams, now I am simply a talentless geek).  It is quite unfortunate that the media and the elite manipulate the masses.  Europe is the breeding ground for racism, intolerance and imperialism. The way they point fingers at America and all other continents is quite laughable. Through my travels and education I am SO proud to be an American. Being born on the 4th of July may have something to do with that, but objectively we are still free and God has indeed shed our grace on us. This whole country was founded because of the tyranny European bigotry. On a global scale, Europeans have infected every single continent with their bigotry and materialism and Americans time and time again have been called to clean up their mess.  The United Nations is the most corrupt and evil organization on the planet next to perhaps the International Olympic Committee or the World Bank.

 

2) I am reading this book called “Boundaries: When to Say Yes, How to Say No to Take Control of Your Life”  and what I have learned from it is that to be separate and an individual does not negate togetherness.  Out of fear do people deny their individuality in favor of a group identity.  This creates stagnation and homogeneity in the group thereby stunting the creative spirit. Dissent and conflict is very important for the growth of anything.  Hence why I created this thread in the first place.  In fact when I went to see the J@LCO, before I fell asleep because I was bored, I remember Wynton saying if you don’t like the music find a way to make it better. Clearly I took up the challenge, LOL.

 

3) Clearly this thread is completely theoretical and only meant to agitate jazz musicians to think in a different way. Like I said somewhere else, jazz and music in general is just an outward reflection of an inward reality. I just don’t think music can communicate what the musician is not, no matter how long they practice simply notes and licks.  And it has been my experience that most white jazz artists, while they respect the music do not respect the people who created it.

 

For example, I can recall in my high school jazz ensemble dating a white saxophonist and everybody in the band giving him crap about it.  In fact my ex-white boyfriend on Facebook righ now talks about how he can channel the spirit of John Coltrane. While the young man is indeed talented with his mouth, he is clearly delusional because I don’t think Coltrane would allow his girlfriend to be called “the jungle”.

     

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Charmaine Nokuri

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” And it has been my experience that most white jazz artists, while they respect the music do not respect the people who created it. ”

I am very sorry that your experiences have given you this view…it is not common among many artists and musicians that I have known through the years and that who surround Wynton and the .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address). I’ll say this, last night at the premier of Wynton’s new work with the MSU orchestra and JLCO, there were a whole pile of white, brown, and maybe even green folks, who had great respect and love for this music and the African Americans who created it.

     
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How was the music, JuanMustard?  Did they call it “Two in 3”?  I bet it was beautiful.

     
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Two in 3…killing. The band and MSU orchestra also did the Peer Gynt Suite (trading movements) and (JLCO alone) a couple of Wynton’s arrangements, “Appointment in Ghana” and “Un Poco Loco” ..encore was the combined forces on his arrangement of “Afro Bossa” and then “Embraceable You” with the quartet…it was great evening of music…racists aside!!

     
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“Emancipate yourselves from mental slavery; None but ourselves can free our minds….How long shall they kill our prophets while we stand aside and look, they say it’s just apart of it we got to fulfill the Book.” -Robert Nesta Marley.

I don’t know what the term “whitey” meant but want to reiterate the fact that I AM NOT A RACIST. In fact I am a Republican Jew (long story, lol) BTW, Shabbat Shalom, everyone !! The whole point of my arguement if it has been lost is: THE ROOTS OF JAZZ AND CREATORS OF JAZZ ARE BLACK. THEREFORE, TO TEAR AWAY THE ROOTS OF ANYTHING RELEGATES IT TO A SLOW PAINFUL DEATH.

 

As for the multicultural nature of MSU band. What do Hutus and Tutsis, German and Jews, Pakistanis and Indians, all have in common ? I am sure they all played music together at some point. Everyone is Kumbya until something goes down. As Langston Hughes said “we were the mask” or as the Good Book says “man looks at the outer man but God looks at the heart.”

 

Get a young black or white jazz artist alone and then maybe you will hear the truth. No one has the balls to say what I am saying, simply because they make their money being nice to each other and it simply wouldn’t be prudent. But thank God I make no money from music, it is simply a fun hobby so I can say whatever the hell I want, lol.

 

After watching the interview with Wynton and Geoffrey Andrews, I clearly saw what I am talking about in plain view. Even the interviewer talked about how culturally irrelevant jazz has become.  It surely doesn’t help jazz that stuffy academics care more about the music than the average person. Back in the day, Haydn and other classical composers played and wrote music for the common man as well as the elite.  From a political and sociological point-of-view nothing changes top down, but from the grass roots level. While some institutionalization of jazz is good, to keep it going and to promote innovation some artists have to stay among the common people and not lose touch with the lower class.

     

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Charmaine Nokuri

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You obviously have a very limited experience in the jazz world, and really have no idea what you are talking about.

 

We should all see what Bill Evans (a white, non-racist jazz Master) has to say about this in 1966, over 40 years ago. 

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sYXB6pQvJcg

     
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JmanLP Okay Bill Evans lost me at around second 45 when he connects jazz to classical music in Europe. You had to go back to 1966 to get a quote about jazz ?

Are you serious ?!!!

 

 

I actually know more about the jazz world than I care to, what you my friend lack is an understanding of the greater world in general. I don’t know you but you do not sound like an innovator, simply a technician of music. A true innovator would understand how to look at an analyze jazz music from a sociological, psychological and historical perspective then synthesize original concepts instead of regurgitating what someone told them.

 

I actually met the former head of the DC Nazi and KKK party last night, thus officially making this the weirdest year of my life.  Despite the fact he lived and worked with mostly black people all his life he used to head these parties. Bill Evans and this guy I met, and many white people I talk to, have subtle racist beliefs. At the same time alot of black people and people of color of all descents have subtle inferior beliefs.

 

In fact, I was eating lunch one afternoon with a very prominent black jazz artist who had a black pride T-shirt on under a jean jacket.  He got up to go to the bathroom and when he returned he had buttoned up his jacket over the t-shirt. I asked him why he buttoned his jacket and he said someone made a comment about it. I said nothing, but I was quite disappointed with his obvious shame about being black.

 

I don’t fault him or the majority of white people, it is the result of poor history. As they say history is written by the victors. I am sorry Bill Evans is a great musician but it does not make him a great historian or social scientist in general. But again I don’t fault him it is not like people were writing great black history in the 60s.

     

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Charmaine Nokuri

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Where did you meet this person?